An apology

[unfeathered]

It has been brought to my attention that I have unintentionally upset a number of people with my comments here and here about the distinction between non-con and D/s.


Let me apologise unreservedly to anyone who was upset by my confusion over the issue – and by any other remarks I have made that read differently to people who are actively participant in bdsm activities than they do to me, since it’s all about fic to me. Upsetting people is the last thing I want to do, but I do have a tendency to put my foot in things and I’m not very good at anticipating how what I write will read to other people, or how important some things are. On these occasions, I do need to be told, clearly, what I’ve done wrong. I will probably cry (it doesn’t take much, especially these days what with stress and tiredness and depression making even tiny things seem like the end of the world to me) but once I’ve calmed down I will do my best to deal with the issue.

I’m sorry I didn’t treat this matter seriously enough when it was first mentioned. I honestly didn’t realise how serious it was and had to have it hammered home to me, because I am that thick at the moment. I’m really, really sorry to anyone I’ve hurt by implying that non-con was not the same as rape, when it obviously is.

For what it’s worth, I’m not likely to be making any more mistakes in the near future. My self-confidence is at an all-time low and I’m not writing and seriously thinking about not even commenting on things because I’m so scared of upsetting people again.

I don’t know if this post helps at all, or if it just makes things worse, but I don’t know what else to do. I really don’t want to lose any friends – or potential friends – over this. And I want to understand things and be a better person and not keep getting things wrong like this.

Comments

[smithy161.livejournal.com]

Having read those comments... I have no idea what it was you said that upset anyone. No one can be expected to know everything, and the fact is, you learned something.

Anyway, I really hope this doesn't stop you from commenting and posting. Since I wasn't part of either discussion, and neither write or participate in these activities I'll just *Hug* you and be on my way.

[unfeathered]

*Hugs back* Thank you. :-)

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

We all say stuff that upsets people at some point, and I can't imagine that you'd do it anything except unintentionally. I don't see what was upsetting in the remarks you put down, but sometimes these things happen - I've done it too, trampling over sensitivities that I didn't even know were there. Fortunately, the person I upset was willing to talk to me and we got it sorted out, but the mortification is so horrible, especially if you're already feeling down.

BUT PLEASE don't let it put you off writing or commenting. You're dealing with it in the right way, graciously and apologetically and feeling you've learned something. That can't be a bad thing. I hope your post is taken in the spirit in which it's meant.

I know that being depressed gets in the way of writing - don't stress it, just do what you need to do here and now to look after yourself - but please don't stop talking to us. My flist would be the poorer without you. *big hugs*

[unfeathered]

Thank you. That means a lot.

As for writing, tbh, it's just not happening at the moment. I was trying to write a few little things for Christmas presents but nothing decent is coming out so I'm giving up.

*hugs back*

[hellenebright.livejournal.com]

We've all put our foots in it at some time or another. The only thing you can do is extract foot, apologise and offer to repair the floorboards!

Unless someone has been emailing offended things to you, I didn't read the exchange as offended. Yes, there was a bit of the "now look here, little vanilla ice," but I don't think it was taken as deliberately offensive. You came over as an adult exploring interesting but sensitive issues, not some silly girl, so offense would have been a poor response anyway.

I know how hard it is when you're down anyway, but don't let it destroy your confidence. Keep talking to us - we'll miss you if you don't.

[unfeathered]

There has been some private dialogue, yes, not just what I've linked to.

And thank you. That means a lot.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

I have no idea how people got upset over those comments. And I don't see how you didn't treat the matter seriously either.

Not sure what to say except *hugs* *love ya kiddo*

[unfeathered]

*Hugs back* Thank you.

[phoenix64.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry your in such a down place right now, and I hope that gets better soon, and I hope you can still find a bit of fandom that isn't stressful for you.

From what I've read, I don't think you've actually really offended anybody, but yeah, there are reasons to be careful with this particular issue. On the one hand you've got the people with the triggering issues, and on the other had you've got the people for who d/s is part of their life, which means they do still have to deal with a bit of general public misconception that they're all kind of monstrous. I know on the second bit in particular that I tend to forget sometimes just how prevalent that kind of idea is out there in the world. But thankfully I have coworkers to remind me. :P

You're not a bad or stupid person. I can name a number of people who spend time in your LJ who wouldn't if you were.

[becky-h.livejournal.com]

general public misconception that they're all kind of monstrous.

This is, I think, the part people miss. I'm not saying that the world has to be politically correct - it doesn't. It shouldn't be, and I want people talking so I can step up and say something, but. It's there. And walking face first into those misconceptions gets old, and when you walk into something in a place you think of as safe - like fandom, or your friendslist - people are *gonna* react. Because it's being slapped in a sensitive spot, when all your defenses are down and you're feeling safe.

I'm not saying Anna had those misconceptions. I am saying that the phrase "I'm not sure what the line between non-con and D/s is" is going to scare the shit out of anyone involved in (safe) BDSM, offend many of them, make predators (and they're there) think she's an easy mark, and to be honest, leave people who know her and consider her a friend a little stung. I honestly don't think anyone set out to hurt her, or offend. Just go "Whoa. No. There's a line. There's a big line." Because there's just no way to responsibly let that remark hang in public, where *other* people who read and find BDSM fic hot to find.

...And I really am slinking off now. Because damn I feel like I got smacked over the head with a 2X4.

[hellenebright.livejournal.com]

To be fair Becky, I did go "oh, shit!" at the "not sure what the line between non-con and D/s is", but in my case it was precisely *because* I thought Anna's talking about porn!fic and Becky's talking about RL sexplay, and it could really really be taken the wrong way. Which it was.

In RL, the type of activity which involves BDSM must have trust and consent as core values, and even then it's a dangerous game. In fic, people are writing (or think they are writing) the fantasy that the sexplayers are playing out - not the actual act. Hence the line *is* blurred, because the fantasy can be non-con, while the act clearly is consensual.

Think back to when you wrote Gotcha. If you recall this thread and this thread, we were actually talking about how porn blurs the line, because in porn the sub always enjoys some part of the experience, and that makes it "better" - so for some people the fic was not truly non-con, because Jack came (while my feeling was that in this case ejaculation was a reflex result, rather than representing a pleasurable experience).

So in fairness to Anna, I think she thought she knew where you were coming from, and would have no way of guessing that you had switched from porn!ficcer to RL sexplayer in your response.

Mismatch of expectations. Big cause of conflict.

[becky-h.livejournal.com]

We actually *had* talked it out, though. Twice. Actually, three times if you count this. I went 'OH CRAP" and replied to what she said, and told her where the line was, since she said she didn't know.

That line is *not* actually different in real life and fic headers - Gotcha! Has a non-con warning on it. I thought she had been leaving them off intentionally, because sometimes people do that.

This isn't, actually, believe it or not, about RL vs. Fic. She said she didn't know, I told her. There ARE RL reprecussions for that, and I DID have a moment of real life flail, but it was cleared up quickly with her explanation.

I am COMPLETELY baffled that this is still an issue and something I am still feeling beaten about the head and shoulders about. It's not even miscommunication. It's "I don't know where the line is." Me: It's there. Then we talked more in my journal, realized it was a fic header use issue, cleared it up, and I moved on.

Real life considerations and issues are there - especially when you can real life end up with your ass in jail, or your partners ass in jail, when someone doesn't get that line, and that made it vital to clear up when it was brought up because there are all sorts of people reading but not talking, but there's no *offense* at the confusion and the only hackling is from me going "What. The. Fuck."

A lot.

[becky-h.livejournal.com]

And wow, that's rambling and non-sensical and I need a nap.

Sort version: I was talking about fic headers, I didn't realize she didn't know where the line was for fic or in real life, and I addressed the issue on both fronts at once, because we were talking about fic and in the comments of a fic. Leaving it off, or deciding/thinking/feeling the line is elsewhere when writing is fine, and why I hadn't said something sooner about her warnings/not. When she expressed not knowing, I tried to clear it up.

Real life issues are there, they're gonna be. They're going to be there whenever you write anything, but that "oh, CHRIST" and worry flail were, of course, part of why I said something. Not just because Anna said something there, but because people read fic and pass it along and all that stuff in my most recent meta. Mostly it was me addressing a fic issue - at least at that point. I buggered off to my own journal to address the larger one.

And *that* may be very well why *I*'m still confused, and you may be right and I'm gonna shut up now because I'm clearly tired and flaily and not functioning well.

[unfeathered]

Becky, I am so sorry to have caused all this kerfuffle and caused you so much stress.

Turns out I didn't understand quite as much as I thought I did, but I bloody well do now, OK? So it was not for nothing, and I'm glad it came up, even though it's made it a rather hellish couple of days for several of us, because it's made me aware of a lot of things I wasn't aware of before, and that's good.

So unless there's anything you still want/need to address, please can we all just put it all behind us now and move on?

[becky-h.livejournal.com]

Yes, please. Lots and lots and lots of please.

[hellenebright.livejournal.com]

And on that note, I'll bugger off too.

[unfeathered]

OK, then. Done. I declare it over! :-)

[becky-h.livejournal.com]

*licks your icon in solidarity*

[unfeathered]

*hugs you*

[phoenix64.livejournal.com]

And just as a general clarification, I would like to state that I obviously fail at what "offended" means for some people, but that's a failure of comprehension on my part and not a judgement of any kind.

[baffledking.livejournal.com]

As I said when you PMed me. It's not your writing that in any way, shape, or form was upsetting. You write very well. As I also said in my reply I understand that you were approaching the situtation from the perspective as a fiction writer, not as someone who knows people to whom this is a real thing. I wasn't after the first comment. That's the base miscommunication right there. The issue was not that you implied that non-con was not the same as rape. The issue was that you implied that non-consentual sex (which is what non-con stands for) was the same thing as D/s. Which is is not. The issue is that you implied that everyone who participates in D/s from a dominant side is a rapist. That might not have been you intent (in fact, I'm absolutely positive it wasn't) but that was what I, at least, got from your comments. And as I said in my PM, that is my problem as all my emotions are. My preception, my problem. You asked, however, and I gave you the respect of an honest answer, because you deserved an honest answer.

I am sorry you're stressed and upset. I am sorry you were upset at the replies to the orginal comments in question. Which again, I said in my PM. I am also sorry that you were upset enough to cry. I'm also sorry that I got upset enough to cry over something you obviously, in hindsight, did not intend.

You are not a bad writer or a bad person. I don't think you intentionally meant to hurt or be offensive. The problem is that we're working in a written medium without the very vital communication tools of voice tone, facial expression, and body language. The quality of our thoughts are, therefore, only as good as the quality of the words we use to express them. I'll be the first one to say that I have a very hard time with expressing personal thought and feeling via the internet, especially not in quick one off comments. So, for that, I say that I honestly and truthfully did not mean to hurt or offend you. If i did I am very sorry.

But it's still true, you did hurt and offend me. It wasn't that you didn't know- that was shocking and upsetting and offensive, but honestly? not your fault, because you honestly did not know. You can't be angry at someone for not knowing something, even something that I consider very basic like this. You especially cannot be angry at someone willing to educate themselves.

But it is a very basic thing, the ability to consent in BDSM. And to withdraw that consent. To not understand something that is so very at the base of all BDSM and then to brush off that not-understanding and claim to understand BDSM very well was really upsetting. Which is why I made the comment to you in the first place that I deleted. Which I did delete because it was reactionary, it wasn't something you intended, and I reacted out of upset instead of responding to your intent. Because honestly, I don't know you well enough to guess your intent. I do apologize for any hurt or offense I gave you because that's not my intent. But I do know how much intent matters, so I am really sorry.

I don't think I hammered home the issue, in fact I took a LOT of deep soothing breathes to avoid hammering home the issue while still trying to give you the respect of honesty. I must really be having a communication problem because I think I'm still not quite making the sense that I'd like to make if we keep miscommunicating like this.

But I am sorry for your upset.

[unfeathered]

I don't think you're failing at communicating - I think I am. I do understand everything you've said here. I'm just not thinking very straight at the moment (in general, I mean, not just here) and things probably aren't coming out quite right, but I do understand (now, after your PM) why you were so upset and I don't blame you for being upset. I can see why it would be upsetting.

The issue was that you implied that non-consentual sex (which is what non-con stands for) was the same thing as D/s. Which is is not.

I do understand that, really I do. I'd just got it all mixed up in my head, but as soon as I started to think about it as referring to real life rather fiction, it was obvious what a mistake I'd made.

I appreciate that you tried not to hammer it home, but tbh with me you probably need to. :-) As I said above, I need things to be spelled out to me sometimes because otherwise I just don't get them.

And hey, as for upsetting me, as I said, really doesn't take a lot at the moment. Not a problem. I'm sorry for upsetting you too.

[becky-h.livejournal.com]

Let me be really, really clear and even more blunt than usual.

I am not upset with you. I am not upset with you, I am not angry with you, I am not offended with you. I failed at your remark about not being sure of the line between D/s and non-con, because it *scared the ever loving shit* out of me.


I realized, at the *end* of our exchange in my journal that you were having trouble not because you thought it was rape but because you didn't understand how non-con, as a fic lable, worked and was applied. That? That's a writing issue and not a big deal. That's sense, that doesn't need an apology, it's not a huge thing.

The *issue* and what I was flailing at, and I'm saying now not just for your benefit but for everyone on your friendslist with the idea that I bit your head off and was a snot, was that you've expressed and said you find BDSM (and D/s) hot over and over, and that you're my *friend* and the idea that you're not sure that there's consent involved in D/s and taking that into your real relationship or bedroom and getting yourself screwed over in unpleasant ways scared the shit out of me.

Yes, there was an element of "...dude, did she just." and squinting and feeling like I failed at talking about BDSM and about writing, but that was never, ever, the source of the momentum or strength of my wording. It *scared me for you* to think that you didn't know what the line was, and that line is *Everything* and I *didn't want to see you hurt*.

And now? I'm taking my ass offline, because my options are to sit here and watch people stroke your wounded ego and tell you that no, you weren't wrong and I was a big old bitchy meanie for correcting you and trying to make sure you, or someone who reads your fic and comments got themselves really hurt, or go make a public post and demand they stroke *my* wounded ego, and honestly? I'm not sure I can handle either one right now.

No good deed, indeed.

ETA: And that last bit was out of line and me flailing and having a big old hair tearing crying fit. Because yeah, I am that frustrated by this situation.

BDSM is my life, my life-style and my sexuality, and I don't know everything. You're certainly not. You're my friend. I want you to be safe and be careful and on the flip side of that - I want you to respect that part of me and my life. I don't have a problem educating. I do it a lot, with people a lot more ignorant (and I mean uninformed not sutpid) than you, every day in the real world, and I deal with people a lot more hostile than anyone I've run into online.

Messing up sometimes is going to happen. You apologized. We discussed. I understand what happened. I don't think it's going to happen again. I'm not speaking for anyone else, just me, but: I'm fine. I like you. It's not your writing. It was never your writing. It was that I was stunned stupid by the idea that you thought D/s didn't involve consent and was both offended and, mostly, worried about you.

And I'm still taking my ass off-line until I can function again because still!not!Dealing! with this well and my safe place just became invaded by the kind of stuff I go to fandom to avoid. I'll crawl back out when I can deal.

[unfeathered]

OK. I'm still replying, because I need to, and because once I leave here at 5.30 I won't be around again until a lot later and I can't just leave this stuff hanging.

Please don't be concerned about my personal safety. I don't know if you remember but we had a brief conversation a few weeks ago about why I would never ever go down the bdsm road with Andy, and it's not like I'd be doing it with anyone else! And I DO understand about consent, I really do. I'd just got confused labels and it really was just a fic thing.

I'm really, really sorry for scaring you. But I'm going to say this to you again - please just tell me! Don't make a big damn post about it and not tell me that it's about me. I told you I don't 'get' subtle and I meant it. Just tell me. Being blunt like you are here is a LOT easier for me to deal with than sitting around wondering if you mean me all the time.

my safe place just became invaded by the kind of stuff I go to fandom to avoid.

Ditto. I spent most of last night and early this morning crying my eyes out because I didn't know where the fuck to go to find someone to talk to about this.

Oh, and I certainly don't think you were being a snot, and I'm sure no-one who commented here did either. I thanked them for their support. I did not answer any of the 'I don't know why people are upset' remarks because I do understand why people are upset.

[becky-h.livejournal.com]

Anna, I made the big damn post because you are not so unique in that particular area. I get email every *Freaking day* from people who are trying to jump BDSM fantasy into real life. That's a lot of what I *do* with my time. Yes, you scared me, but you were not the only one, and I don't do passive aggressive postsl to the public to deal with situations that could be handled in private. I make them when I need a public platform to address a group at large and think they're serving the needs of the non-vocal and non-visible majority (edited to correct from minority)

When you upset me, I tell you: AKA: This is the line between non-con and D/s. Then you're upset and crying and I feel like a bitch for doing it, but that's my issue not yours. I do tell you. Please don't ever confuse my public posts with being directed to you. They're not. Most of my meta is, in fact, actually directed to some portion of my friendslist and people watching my journals/reading my fic. That's all, I swear.

As for the rest: Thank you for the reassurance, I really *do* appreciate that. Though I'd actually gotten my issues resolved in comments we exchanged, more reassurance is never bad.

[unfeathered]

Hey, I read the comments to your last fic - I knew it wasn't just directed at me - but I really wasn't sure it was directed at me at all. That's all I meant up there.

And... OK. I hope we're all right now. I have to go, anyway.

[becky-h.livejournal.com]

I hope so, too. Be safe, and have a good day.

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

This whole thing has whooshed over my head like a great whooshing thing, which is probably just as well - however I would like to offer virtual cookies, hugs, and/or whatever else works to everyone involved.

[unfeathered]

Thank you. :-)

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

I missed all this - just catching the tail end of you talking to Becky because you commented right after me the other day.

BUT that aside if you just want to prop yourself up in the corner over here with me and blub quietly feel free I could do with the company tbh. *sniffs quietly*

[unfeathered]

Heh, be glad you missed it. It was a horrible mess. But it's over now. I think.

And I'm fine today, having got this sorted out and had a good night's sleep.

What's up with you? Anything I can do? *hugs*

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

*hugs*
I'm just intermittent weepy and feeling very negative I think I just need to let it happen - Christmas will be over soon enough.

[unfeathered]

Oh, sweetie. :-(

Every single person I know (well, women, anyway) seems to be stressed about Christmas this year and wishing they didn't have to do it. Hopefully, we'll all enjoy it once it arrives, but there's just so much pressure to do things before hand!

Sounds like the best thing you can do is let it all out. Is hubby there to give you hugs? Mine has been very useful like that the last day or two!

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

I am currently sitting on the sofa with my sister She for whom Christmas is this rosy all hallowed no-one on this Earth could possibly attain it except people in films saying "I don't want to do Christmas I'd be quite happy to sit down with a cup of tea somewhere"

*This* is what an eyeroll sounds like online
"jhrejhrtwh euhnvhetwpcxm;;,l g"

[unfeathered]

Ah. Well. So I was right. No-one wants to do Christmas this year!

Oh dear.

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

I don't believe it for a minute - and she knows I don't either :D