'Morning after' reaction post to Torchwood 3.5

[unfeathered]

Like a lot of people, it seems, I feel let down and betrayed by CoE ep 5. Okay, I didn't expect everything to end up perfect, but I did expect my Torchwood team to save the world. And they didn't. They might have killed the baddie in the end, but they left thousands and thousands of kids and their parents traumatised and the world, presumably, in political turmoil. The world would not be the same afterwards, which means they did not save it.

I don't actually have a problem with the character of Jack sacrificing his grandson to get rid of the aliens. That's fine; it's the sort of thing Jack *would* do. What I *do* have a problem with is the fact that the writers decided to make it *necessary* for him to do it. Because that didn't have to be the story. They could have had him save everyone with just the other children singing. And then we could have actually smiled at the end, a little.

The same with Frobisher and his kids. That storyline was unnecessary too. God knows, there was enough angst in this episode without having to watch him lose all hope and go home to kill his family and himself. Especially knowing that it was unecessary because of course all the children would in fact be safe.

As for the scenes of all the school children being herded into buses by scary soldiers while their teachers and parents looked on in anguish, and of the kids staring out of the bus windows crying, and of them all standing there inside a circle of soldiers looking tiny and scared, and of the soldiers breaking into people's homes and carrying off their kids, and their parents (and Andy - loved that!) fighting back and inevitably getting crushed, and Rhiannon and her bunch of kids running for their lives being chased by fucking scary soldiers, watching the soldiers catch up with them... Those images are not leaving my mind any time soon.

This episode should have come with parental warnings: do not watch if you have children. (Especially children who look like Stephen.)

And even at the end, there was no hope. Somehow, six months had passed with no indication of what had been happening - how the world had changed, if the government had changed, if Gwen had been still trying to save people in lieu of there being an actual Torchwood to do it - and Jack's back for two seconds and then he runs away! What is he, the bloody Doctor? Again, yes, in character (for how he was a couple of thousand years ago, anyway) but was it really necessary? Couldn't we have at least had the hope that the two/three of them were rebuilding Torchwood again?

One tiny moment of glee in the midst of all that gloom - Jack's wristband! Thank god for that!

But what now? Is Doctor Who going too deal with the backlash of what's happened here? Both to the world, and to Jack? Because if it doesn't, then I'm going to find it hard to believe they're the same universe.

Comments

[aeshna_uk]

*hugs*

I did love it. And as RTD pointed out in the pre-publicity - it's not that this is a thing that is utterly alien to this world, the soldiers rolling in and carrying off children to an unknown fate: it happens every day in parts of Africa. What's freaky is that we're seeing it happen on the streets of the UK, something we prefer not to think about suddenly real and personal. But life goes on, people cope. Traumatic, but as Jack said, humans adapt.

And, you know, I can't imagine that the events of the last DW finale weren't traumatic in their own way - look at the suicide stats mentioned on Monday. But that's the difference between DW and TW - on TW the consequences are there to be seen. On DW, they're brushed under the carpet, more often than not.

I think that the writers had to make it necessary for the drama - RTD has backed away too often on DW and here, post-watershed, he was finally able to really just go for it. And I'm so glad he did. All that build-up required a gut-kicker of a solution or else the victory would have felt hollow. As it is, I feel bruised but satisfied and the bunnies are gathering....

[unfeathered]

I don't do spoilers so I haven't seen/read any pre-publicity so I didn't know what was coming and I truly didn't expect the writers to take the story so far as to start rounding up the children. I certainly didn't know it happens in real life, and that *really* doesn't make me feel any better. *Why* does it happen in real life???

I guess the difference for me between this and the DW finale was that this is *children*. That makes a world of difference for how I feel about it.

or else the victory would have felt hollow

I'm sorry, but *what* victory? That did not feel like a victory to me. A victory would have been stopping it all before it got too far. This was too far.

And okay, perhaps we are watching for different things, but I need an ending with some hope. Not necessarily happy, but at least hopeful. I do not like bleak and depressing, not if there's no hope at the end, no satisfying feeling of having achieved something. I've never thought of RTD as having backed away on DW, but in a way yes he doesn't deal with the consequences - but that's because it's the Doctor and the Doctor doesn't live linearly on earth. Gwen and (until now) Jack do.

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

I'm kind of the reverse of you - I saw Frobisher's murder/suicide thing as logical and inevitable and Jack sacrificing Stephen as neither. Not even my darkly!moral Jack would have done that. In fact the only Jack I can see as being capable of it is the Time Agent Jack that ran with John Hart. And ffs Jack's moved on one hell of a lot from that.

And I'm not even going to begin on the soldiers rounding up the kids failed for me on just about *every* level. BUT yes HOORAY for Andy getting stuck in there.

[unfeathered]

I can see Jack as doing what needed to be done no matter what. It's not really *that* different from the Jasmine thing, is it? I just hate that they made him *have* to.

And I'm not even going to begin on the soldiers rounding up the kids failed for me on just about *every* level.

Well, at least someone feels the same about that! Hardly anyone's even mentioning that part of it!

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

Ah but Jasmine wanted to go - it was... her destiny.

Jack doing that to his own flesh and blood is a very different thing, as far as I am concerned.

[unfeathered]

Mmm, good point.

But I'm not sure that 'his own flesh and blood' means that much to Jack. He was perfectly willing to take Stephen away to 'test' him in the first episode, wasn't he?

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure that would have been more along the lines of observation not cutting him open or anything...

[unfeathered]

Yeah, I know. :-)

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

*lubs you*

[unfeathered]

*lubs you right back*

[omphalos.livejournal.com]

This episode should have come with parental warnings: do not watch if you have children.

I couldn't agree more.

I do do spoilers, precisely because I need to be warned in advance about things like this. So I never bothered watching 3.5, but even reading the detailed spoilers was enough to bother me.

[unfeathered]

*sighs* Perhaps I shall have to start doing spoilers, then. I wish I had known in advance how far they were going to take it, because I would at least have delayed watching it.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

The six months later thing bothered me a lot. I want to know what happened to Andy and Ianto's BIL and how the world reacted and whatnot. It just seemed unnecessary- like the only reason for it was to show Gwen pregnant and huge.

[unfeathered]

Yes, me too! I mean, one assumes they're okay, but it would be nice to know!

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

Oddly, that winds up being my big problem with the series. (Well that and where the hell the TW SUV wound up)

[unfeathered]

Yes! I'd forgotten the SUV!

And Myfanwy, of course.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

Since the big boom was at night I'm hoping she was out and about, but I would have liked to have that confirmed.

And so much for Jack not being able to kill Grey and instead putting him in stasis. Methinks he's dead now.

[unfeathered]

Yep. Jack lost a hell of a lot when the Hub blew up. What was left of his brother, his little box full of photos, his chunk of TARDIS, and goodness knows what in the safe and the archives.

...Oh goodness, all that stuff in the archives! I bet a lot of that survived and is just buried under a load of rubble. Anyone could get hold of it!

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

With luck some of that survived. The TARDIS coral is probably fine, Jack's things were in a metal box inside his desk so they could be undamaged, one would hope the archives were collected or locked up or something... but these are all plot bits that RTD didn't even consider. Which bugs me a bit.

[unfeathered]

Yes, exactly. It's nice to have unwritten stuff so we can fic it, but it also bugs me that it's not mentioned at all!

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

Even if there were a declassified about this series it would help because then RTD could throw out a "Oh, blah blah blah" about what happened to Janet or any of this stuff, so we'd know he at least considered it.

[unfeathered]

Yes!

[unfeathered]

OMG - Jack's TARDIS key! That's another thing he's lost!

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

oh geez, yep. How's he going to explain THAT to the Doctor?

[unfeathered]

I'm sure the Doctor will be very forgiving. If Jack actually tells him...

But god, poor Jack!

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

150 years of memories, gone in a bigboom. *sighs*

[unfeathered]

It's rather like I always imagined Angel feeling when his office/apartment got blown up at the end of AtS S1.

Except even more so.

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

*grumbles at RTD*

[unfeathered]

*grumbles with you*

[skipthedemon.livejournal.com]

Becky and I thought of that in RP earlier. And my heart broke. Because I'm sure he's been separated from it before, but I'm also sure he fought to get it back. Don't think he did this time.

[unfeathered]

Ouch. I hadn't got that far in my thinking, but yeah, the fact that he'd been away for six months without (apparently) raising hell to get his wristband back says a lot and I guess the TARDIS key would be the same. He doesn't want to be that guy any more.

ETA: And wow, Becky's playing up-to-date Jack already??? *is impressed* I'm going to have to work a *lot* of stuff out before I try updating my canon!Jack!

[skipthedemon.livejournal.com]

Don't think her perception of Jack actually changed much! We've certainly played dark when Sandboxing.

[unfeathered]

Mmm, not perception, no - there wasn't actually a lot in there that changed him. I meant, more, details of what went on, where he's been/going, that sort of thing.

[skipthedemon.livejournal.com]

I didn't feel betrayed. Maybe if I was a parent, I would. But dark stories aren't for everyone.

[unfeathered]

I'm not absolutely sure that 'betrayed' was the right word to use there, but...

For me, this wasn't dark, this was bleak and depressing. Like S6 of Buffy, same thing, but at least that season ended with a ray of hope, and Buffy and Dawn climbing out into the sunlight etc.

This just didn't lift me up at all and I know part of that is my own fault for expecting the storylines to go somewhere other than where they went, but I do *not* watch tv to be depressed. I watched it to *escape* depression.

That said, it was made a hell of a lot worse by its terrible timing in relation to the RL events in my life this week, so a lot of my reaction is very personal and I wouldn't expect others to react the same.

[hellenebright.livejournal.com]

I remember a friend of mine, many years ago, commenting that he could no longer watch Mad Max now he had become a father himself, due to the scene where Max's wife and child die. Sometimes it just hits you, whether it's fact or fiction - a news item in the Guardian newspaper about some refugees lacking shelter in bad weather did the same to me once.

If you think, in the DW episode with the out-of-time Donna, it included soldiers forcing families onto trucks and driving them off (and we were supposed to think 'to the gas chambers'). I guess he just took the idea a little further.

What interests me is what we would have got if Freema Agyema and Noel Clarke had been available and the BBC had decided to go ahead with the earlier evening version, instead of the 'blockbuster and pull the plug' version (John Barrowman's bitter comments now making more sense)

[unfeathered]

I know, I'm sure there have been similar things before and it's as much the bad timing of this with my personal life as anything else that's making me react so badly.

I didn't realise there might have been an earlier evening version - but I'm sure I would have enjoyed it a lot more!

Perhaps that's what part of the problem is. Everyone's saying, it's Torchwood, what do you expect? But I guess I still expect Doctor Who and I forget it's a different show.

[hellenebright.livejournal.com]

Early proposals from the BBC were to make Torchwood more suitable for early evening viewing and have Freema and Noel Clarke join TW as Martha and Micky. One can imagine what kind of a show that would have produced - not to everyone's taste perhaps but you can imagine scripting 13 episodes, and it would have had jokes.

When Freema went to UK Law and Order early on, before any scripts were written, the BBC seems to have decided to do something different, and it really does feel like a swansong.

If I'm wrong, if it comes back next year as another five parter a la Prime Suspect, then my guess is that it will get a substantially different audience. I'm also interested in how audiences around the world will react.

[unfeathered]

Ohhhh! So the Martha and Mickey thing wasn't just my imagination, then? And yes, I do vaguely remember stuff ages ago about making it more family-friendly; I'd just forgotten.

That would definitely have been more my kind of show!

Don't see why they couldn't have had Mickey anyway, though. :-(

I will still watch, if it does come back - well, as long as it still has Jack. Because Jack's why I watch anyway.